You make me sick and tired, so I challenge you to answer the following:

Whenever I encounter people who are willingly settling for magical cognitive shortcuts instead of seeking true answers, people willfully choosing to remain ignorant, and some of the mental gymnastics they engage into – it makes my brain cells beg me to allow them to commit massive suicide in protest. I have to talk them out of it way too often for my liking, so allow me a short preamble and then the ultimate question to all the believers into any of the gods out there.

(note: FULL CAPS are for EMPHASIS only. I copy-pasted some of the material off of Facebook, and since bold/italics are unavailable there, I use full caps. Changing it is time-consuming, thus I kept the full article in the same format – using caps for emphasis on words throughout)

The thing that particularly ticks me off is when someone has the nerve to not simply twist and bend the FACTS of this universe to the point when “a blue sky” becomes “a yellow sea” all of a sudden, but plain outright DENIES ALL FACTS that they find unsettling to their dogma. On top of that, it bugs me even more that SCIENCE is being spat into the face by believers as ‘dogmatic’ and ‘prone to error’, yet when they so see fit, they jump to use ANYTHING FROM SCIENCE to try and prove THEIR point as ‘correct’… Well here’s some news: you either reject science in its entirety, and then stop USING it to prove YOUR point, or you endorse it – and then stop spitting bullshit.

The sheer volume of hypocrisy that beliefs normally require is paramount. It takes lying – to oneself and others – on a regular basis about things that have been proven to be a certain way to maintain postulates of belief in magic. To top that hypocrisy pancake stash, there is an additional layer of “holier than thou” and claims to “ultimate knowledge and/or understanding” of something that is BEYOND human understanding by their own definition. I am honestly curious how the brains of the people who manage to carry all that inside them don’t explode out of the tension caused by severe cognitive dissonance they foster!

Well let’s see, dear believer in the divine… You believe YOUR god is THE ULTIMATE TRUTH… (if you weren’t convinced that your version of an invisible friend was THE shit, you’d pick a different one, so don’t even TRY to smooth-talk yourself out of it)

(At the same time, you call atheists, who simply say “I find it hard/impossible to be convinced without some lofty evidence” ARROGANT and IGNORANT for “insisting that they are right”… Double standard any?..)

Speaking of double standards…

I am having a hard time seeing the believers, many of whom claim that the entire bloody universe was especially designed and fine-tuned for THEM, that something infinite and divine LISTENS to THEM, CARES about THEM, ANSWERS THEIR prayers (that alone is twisted: apparently god has a ‘divine plan’, so if you pray for something that is already a part of the divine plan, you’d get it, which renders the prayer redundant; if you pray for something that isn’t a part of ‘the plan’ and get it – the god’s ‘plan’ is worth shit if any hard-praying prick can so easily sway it) and has a special place ready for THEM when they die because THEY chose the RIGHT delusion for themselves, claim that they are HUMBLE. At the same time, many atheists who say that we are merely a remarkable result of a sequence of chance events, the universe is hostile to life and our species, and we are bound to perish as a species soon, too, and thus must appreciate this one and only life we have and do the maximum we can for our fellow human beings to make their lives as meaningful and exciting as possible, are labelled as SELF-CENTERED and ARROGANT…

Many believers who can’t wait for the world to end and demean this life by the notion of eternal bliss that is bound to follow claim to have more MEANING to their waiting-period here on earth than many atheists who urge to do the maximum during this one lifetime, for it is all we have, and to use it wisely to advancement of human happiness and knowledge…

Oh and many believers, who thank god for just about everything, forgetting to thank those who ACTUALLY make things happen for them claim to be gracious, while many atheists, who experience immense gratitude towards the human beings who have allowed them to enjoy all their comforts and perks of modern life are UNGRATEFUL…

Anyway, besides all these above-mentioned problems that bug me, I am yet to hear any true believer (see paragraph 5 for what it means) answer  the ultimate question presented below:

Me: ARE you PERFECT? Are your JUDGMENT and UNDERSTANDING perfect and error-free?

Believer: (IF you have enough decency to admit it…) No, I err/ am imperfect.

Me: So WHAT exactly gives you the RIGHT to DARE to CLAIM a PERFECT (or even anything close to ‘ACCURATE’/’correct’, or for that matter ANY) UNDERSTANDING of ANYTHING DIVINE at all? That INCLUDES the ‘DIVINE LAW’ – for even if such thing ever existed, the moment you lay a claim of “THIS IS the law, and THIS, on the contrary, is NOT” – you’re making a JUDGMENT on the DIVINE LAW which by your own acceptance of the fact of your IMPERFECTION then forces me to question WHAT A FUCK IS it exactly that allows YOU to self-righteously claim that out of ALL the imperfect people on the planet YOU are the one CLOSER TO PERFECTION by SUCH a degree that you actually ARE CAPABLE of both UNDERSTANDING and JUDGMENT of the DIVINE LAW, or divine ANYTHING to ANY degree that would be ANY closer to ‘accurate’ than the understanding/judgement of it all of ANY OTHER human being (including those why by using their understanding/judgement REFUSE to believe in what you choose to believe in for the lack of convincing evidence of its existence)?…

If you dare say “but my favorite book says so!…” – please go back to sentence one and re-read it again. As many times as it takes. Like a mantra. Until it actually sinks in.

Updated: some video material on the topic

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About in shade

A cocktail of personality traits hard to digest for some but ultimately soothing for those who can. I observe, enjoy, travel, interact, photograph, dance, contemplate, write and love my way through this life's countless occurrences. This blog is a way to share with the world and its people some of the treasures they give me every day.
This entry was posted in Controversial, Inspiring, Ironic, Matters of faith and tagged , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

21 Responses to You make me sick and tired, so I challenge you to answer the following:

  1. Anonymous says:

    sounds like you have a lot of questions, but aren’t seeking answers but rather have just made a page on which to rant about people you don’t fully understand. let me suggest that the people who do have the knowledge would not be reading this page, and probably would not respond to you because you are just seeking reactions. as i read “about in shade” i am impressed with the fact that i have read nothing about the treasures you are given every day… so sad..

    • in shade says:

      Anonymous posting? Shows how ‘strongly’ you stand by your word and faith…

      Anyway… My ultimate question is the one and only – and it is at the end of the entry, as I mentioned it would be. If your reading comprehension skills are THIS poor, maybe you shouldn’t even comment on things you cannot even read properly… (Other things simply bug me, I don’t understand them, but they’re not the ULTIMATE question to me – just a common annoyance).

      Sounds like you aren’t truly capable of answering, but just made a comment that shows that you actually don’t understand this blog and its author…

      As for people who have the knowledge – I am yet to live to see someone have knowledge of something that is by definition beyond human knowledge. Something tells me implying such people exist is delusion, pretense, lie or ego mania.

      About the treasures you say aren’t there…

      First of all, there IS one treasure you’re forgetting: ME. I AM a treasure. In fact, I am the most precious treasure of ALL in my life because, well, nothing in my life would have any value, meaning, beauty to me if ME was not HERE to appreciate it all. My actual LIFE is a treasure – it’s the most precious thing I have because only it allows me to do anything, to impact any other people around me, to help anyone. So that’d be a triple-serving of “FAIL” for you. On the house.

      If, however, you meant you were looking for entries that mention these treasures – I doubt you had the time to go through my entire blog (hint: there are 5 of them interlinked – that’s what tabs are for, and entries from each blog only show on each respective blog alone) and read all the entries just yet. Search and thy shall find.

    • Vinayak Prasad says:

      respect …. learn to give respect to other views … secondly it seems you don’t have so called answer your self … thirdly it seems you lack knowledge … cause you just read her blog and you responded too … cause you wanted to react ….

  2. Dr. Sprankle says:

    I find religious belief to be on par with the cognitive capacities of a 3-year-old. It’s ego-centric, illogical, circular, and most of all, susceptible to authoritative influence. Another similarity between believers and toddlers is their level of sexual maturity.

    • in shade says:

      I haven’t met many toddlers who rape nuns and little boys and girls, but maybe I am just misinformed on the matter of toddlers…

      • Dr. Sprankle says:

        I’m not aware of too many nun-raping toddlers either, but I was referencing a maturity level regarding sexuality that seems to be driven by an ignorant and blind acceptance of sexual values because it is coming from an authority figure (i.e., parents and god).

  3. Vinayak Prasad says:

    nor am i a atheist nor religious ….. i believe in every thing …and yes it is irritating when people try to thrust their ideas on you … i come from east, so will try to put eastern point of view …. every culture has tried & trying to understand its self why do we exists…and every culture comes up with there own understanding of life …. its own customize version of mythology ….. Different people see the world have different understanding of the world ( believers refuse or ignore to see that) different people see things differently , different view points … there is my world and there is your world , and my world is always better than your world , because you see my world is rational and yours is superstitious , yours is fake , yours is illogical…. and believers refuse to see there are more that 7 billion worlds existing just as humans …
    In any mythology …. east west north or south … “GOD ” takes the responsibility and solves the problem of their disciples…. but our believers don’t want to take any responsibility and leave every thing to god and prayers … why should god help one out ,when who refuses to take the responsibility and expects some divine power to come and solve his her or his community problem. taking responsibility to the problem ” this is my problem ” is being close to god …
    believers refuse to understand that the path of holiness lies through questing every thing ..we begin by distrusting what we already believe , by actively seeking the threatening and unfamiliar, by deliberately challenging the validity of what we have previously been taught and hold dear
    one of our problem is that very few of us have developed any distinctive personal life, every thing about us seems second hand , even our emotions . in many cases we have to rely on second hand information in order to function. i accept the word of a physician , a scientist , a farmer on trust . i have to because they possess the vital knowledge of living of which i am ignorant. second hand information concerning the state of my kidneys , the effect of cholesterol and the raising of chickens. i can live with but when it comes to questions of meaning, purpose and death, second hand information will not do. i cannot survive on second hand faith in second hand god . there has to be personal lord, a unique confrontation if i am to come alive… there is reason to believe that behind supuriousnotious and false concept of god there lies a reality that is god ” GOD beyond GOD”
    clearly a lot of dirty bath water surrounding the reality of god , holyness,inquisitions dogmatism , ignorance ,hypocrisy ,self righteousness, rigidity , cruelty , book burning , witch burning , inhibition fear, conformity, morbid guilt, insanity
    all this god has done to humans or humans have done to GOD
    it is essential to our spiritual growth for us to become scientists, who are skeptical of what we have been taught- that is the common notions of our culture , but the notions of science themselves often become culture idols and it is necessary that we become skeptical of these as well.
    coming from east .. specially from Indian subcontinent …. for us there is nothing as perfect …. ( no wonder we have millions of god) we believe in dharma( i googled this word and i don’t see a right definition for this word but i will try to explain) … doing the right thing at right time in right moment .. which could change moment by moment … when we go to temple we seek audience from god ( dharsan) we want god to see us and understand … you know god why we lied there , why i had to flaunt my CV to get the job …why i did not give right information to my colleague…. etc ….i have tried to explain it and i hope i am able to put the idea across and there is Karma … i can go on but i got to go and make some money

    • in shade says:

      Hello there! First off – you’re alive!!!! :). I mean, i just haven’t heard from you in a long time and now all this :). Hope everything is going well with you!

      Anyway… Thank you for your insight! Everything that you mentioned about questioning, about the necessity to rely on others, our attempts to understand ourselves and our lives – these are very vital points and aspects of our existence and our cultures indeed!

      This is one of the things that is very attractive for me in Eastern cultures – the underlying philosophies of the regions of the East are much deeper, more personal in many levels than the monotheistic branches… They are also more encompassing in principle…

      I’d grill you on some things though: are you certain (you personally) that there actually is something like a god, or do you think/accept that maybe there is absolutely nothing there of the sorts? What is it to you exactly – what are its characteristics for you? Also, reincarnation is a very fascinating topic in and of itself, but how does it fit into the picture of life and doing one’s best here now in this life?.. When you get countless ‘second chances’ – what is the driving motivation to do the best you can this time, to live the most fulfilling life this time?.. And would it change for you if it were somehow proven to you that you only have one life and that’s it?…

      Hope to hear more and have a lovely end of the week!

      p.s. hit “reply” on your own post to comment (if you would comment) – not this one – this way the resulting comment will display in a wider window 🙂

  4. Vinayak Prasad says:

    see i respect faith , but doubt is what gets you an education … see for me life is series of problem and it is the whole process of meeting and solving problem that life has a meaning.For me GOD is a concept …. and there is nothing wrong with the concept …. Jesus is a concept & i have no problem with it nor do i have problem with allha or any other god .. we hindus have may god so cant mention any names…. as hindus we can have koan or jesus in our temple and we will accept that like any other god of ours … we absolutely have no problem …. hindusum is a philosophy not a religion … actual religieon is sanatan dharma … which lot of hindus also dont know about lol .
    i am not trying to advertise hindusim … all i am trying to put there philosophy for greater discussion
    for hindus life is not complete if you don’t gain following in your life time
    live with virtue- dharma
    gain wealth and success ( we are the only religion who worships goddess of wealth “laxmi”
    to find pleasure – ( kamasutra came out of hindusim … and there are other pleasures too)
    to seek enlightenment
    if we postulate that our capacity to love , this urge to grow and evolve is somehow ” breathed into” us by god then we must ask to what end … why does god want us to grow ? what are we growing towards ? where is the end point , the goal of evolution . what is it god that god wants of us ?

    god wants us to become himself , we are growing towards godhood. god is the goal of evolution . it is god who is the source of evolutionary force and god is the destination
    he is alpha and omega – the beginning and the end
    when we grow , it is because we are working at it and we are working at it because we love ourselves. it is through love that we elevate ourselves and it is through love for others that we assist others to elevate them selves
    love, the extension of the self , is the very act of evolution. it is evolution in progress. the evolution force present in all of life,mainfests itself in mankind as human love. among humanity love is the miraculous force that defies the natural law of entropy
    regarding reincarnation…. personally i don’t know if reincarnation exists or not but it effects the way one’s think
    for west .. there is one life … so what ever you achieve in life is divided by one .. so you achievement in life is sum total of your achievement
    for east ( indian subcontinent ) – there is infinite life and you live the same life infinite times so what ever you achieve in life when divided by infinite is 0 ” zero”
    if you can make sense out of it ……….. that probably ” or maybe ” zero was discovered or invented in indian subcontinent ….. the whole idea of zero or nothingness
    the hindu philosophy gave rise to the concept of non violence… gave rise to person person called “gandhi ”
    which is a better philosophy… i dont know … both are man made and both have evolved from our human experiences …. for me which ever works best for you should follow that …. that is DHARMA…. there is nothing wrong or right … every thing is right and wrong depends on the given situation ……… does it make sense to you …..?

    • in shade says:

      “see i respect faith , but doubt is what gets you an education …”

      Aaaaaaay-maaan 🙂

      “see for me life is series of problem and it is the whole process of meeting and solving problem that life has a meaning.”

      I’d choose to call the ‘problems’ as ‘challenges and opportunities’ instead – if you wont’ mind 🙂

      “For me GOD is a concept …. and there is nothing wrong with the concept ….”

      No actually nothing at all. Until the moment that people start basing their actions on the assumption that their private CONCEPT of a god grants them some form of unquestionable divine SANCTION/OBLIGATION to do/not do something. That’s when we run into the big problem… (“I am fucking angry” entry in the main blog explores just that )

      “for hindus life is not complete if you don’t gain following in your life time live with virtue- dharma”

      How does caste system fit under “virtue” according to you?…

      “gain wealth and success ( we are the only religion who worships goddess of wealth “laxmi””

      Maybe you’re the only one with the wealth goddess (I doubt it though – i can probably run a simple google search for ‘god of wealth’ and find several hundreds listed), but Protestants actually equate wealth and achievement with the sign from god of a free ticket to heaven (of course, it matter not if you robbed a bank to be wealthy…) :)…

      “to find pleasure – ( kamasutra came out of hindusim … and there are other pleasures too)”

      I read the lifestyle part of Kamasutra – you know, the actual BOOK, not picture manual – laughed my ass off 😀 You guys are awesome just for having written that stuff 😀

      On a side note: the stuff is bloody dangerous unless you’re an athlete/yogi…

      “to seek enlightenment”

      Middle Way/golden rule by any chance?…

      “if we postulate that our capacity to love , this urge to grow and evolve is somehow ” breathed into” us by god then we must ask to what end …”

      And if we postulate that it wasn’t breathed into us by any god but actually simply is a biological adaptation to ensure survival?…

      “why does god want us to grow?”

      You’ve not answered my question from before: are you absolutely certain there IS a god, and if yes – why?

      “what are we growing towards ? where is the end point , the goal of evolution . what is it god that god wants of us ?”

      What if there IS no one goal? What if evolution is just a process of adaptation to a changing environment?… And we’re just a passing species to something else?

      “god wants us to become himself”

      God has a gender?… You shoudl read my “Nothing personal” entry for that, as well as for any god’s ‘desires’…

      “we are growing towards godhood. god is the goal of evolution”

      That’s kind of pointless. We start with ‘god’ – as part of god, AS god, then somehow everything for whatever reason gets so fucked up that we end up as US and have to WORK our way ‘back’ to god… Huh?

      “it is because we are working at it and we are working at it because we love ourselves.”

      No we don’t. People HATE themselves. They hate everything about themselves possibly imaginable and more. Looks, feelings, urges, capacities, limitations, obligations, possibilities, fact of existence itself, and other people/things/events int eh universe.

      “it is through love that we elevate ourselves and it is through love for others that we assist others to elevate them selves”

      Right. Except ‘love’ isn’t a given state of being.

      “among humanity love is the miraculous force that defies the natural law of entropy
      regarding reincarnation….”

      WOOOOOOW hold your horses right very there… Now, if you managed this sentence in the science think-tank, you’d be beaten up with sticks… To avoid that, please NEVER ever use terminology you have no clue whatsoever about. Unless you’re asking a question.

      Now… Love is NOT a ‘force’. Love is a chemical cocktail in your body. It’s for procreation purposes. Live with it.

      Entropy defied by love?.. You have any idea what either MEANS/IS?…

      “personally i don’t know if reincarnation exists or not but it effects the way one’s think”

      yeah one side (west) of believers in fairy tales think that a finite number of meaningless but specific ‘right actions’ can earn then an infinite time in heaven/hell, the other side (east) of believers thinks sitting on one’s butt and allowing things to just happen and whatever on everything and everyone because nothing really matters anyway – a very productive way of living on both ends… not…

      “the hindu philosophy gave rise to the concept of non violence… gave rise to person person called “gandhi ””

      Don’t even start me on THAT crazy guy – that’s worth an entry of its own! Yeah he said some catchy stuff and had a few fine ideas but the amount of wicked legacy we got from him may well outweigh all that…

      “which is a better philosophy…”

      Unless you’re being shot at from a machine gun, of course…

      “that is DHARMA…. there is nothing wrong or right … every thing is right and wrong depends on the given situation ……… does it make sense to you …..?”

      Yes and no. It’s an escapist relativistic idea that sounds cool at first but really isn’t. Unless, of course, you can come up with some circumstance/situation under which, say, raping a 4 years old kid is EVER a “good” thing and NOT “wrong”…

      • Vinayak Prasad says:

        “see i respect faith , but doubt is what gets you an education …”

        Aaaaaaay-maaan 🙂
        i know a family in Nepal…. who are big fan of one of the GOD MAN from india … his son studied with me for 12 years and i know him personally … his is considered avatar of krishna ( one of the hindu god) which i did not know till i met this family … this middle class family had lot of domestic problem .. the guy was a drunkard … lost his job beat up his wife and stuff …. after following the god man there were changes .. and he got his life back … did god man change him … i dont think so …. god man was just a god man preaching his stuff .. but his faith in god man changed him … the god man son … has partied with me and we have done every thing a normal teenager does or a young chap does … girls drugs and every thing .. but he was perceived differently by the family … he was considered avatar of krishna .. and the family had full faith in him … it bettered there life cause of the faith .. for me thats what matters ……if any thing brings good in some one … why not … let it be .. ( now i dont know how god man is defined in west … they are not god but some one who is enlighten) now again i dont know how enlightenment is see in west … but here in east it is the knowledge which defines enlightenment…. i am putting these ideas for greater discussion…

        “see for me life is series of problem and it is the whole process of meeting and solving problem that life has a meaning.”

        I’d choose to call the ‘problems’ as ‘challenges and opportunities’ instead – if you wont’ mind 🙂
        see english is not my first language and it does not come naturally to me … yes challenges is a better vocabulary … thank you for correction … and every challenges have an opportunity ….

        “For me GOD is a concept …. and there is nothing wrong with the concept ….”

        No actually nothing at all. Until the moment that people start basing their actions on the assumption that their private CONCEPT of a god grants them some form of unquestionable divine SANCTION/OBLIGATION to do/not do something. That’s when we run into the big problem… (“I am fucking angry” entry in the main blog explores just that )
        i will again repeat … GOD is a concept …. and every individual have the right to the concept … and your concept of GOD could be no god all together …that is fine … but one has to realize that there are 7 billion + people .. and there could be 7 billion + concept of god .. and no one god is better than any one elses god… there is no standardization… west thought process goes in standardization … in east thought process does have standardization ….. i will try to put some thing from how belief can change the way one does business ….

        If you believe in just living once … in one life culture around the world you will see the obsession with
        Binary logic
        Absolute Truth
        Standardization
        Absoluteness
        Linear pattern design
        And if you look at culture which believes in cyclical and infinite life you will see comfort with
        Fuzzy logic
        With opinion
        With contextual thinking
        With every thing is relative sort of …mostly( you look at art look at ballerina .. How linear she is in her performance and look at the Indian classic dancer .. Bharat natyam dancer … curveishesh
        Now look at business standard business model ..vision … mission…values …&process …. Sounds very much like .. Journey through the wilderness to the promised land …with the commandment held by the leader and if you comply you will go to heaven … but in India there is “no the promised land “ there are many promised land … depending on your station on society …depending on your stage of life … u see in India business are not run as institution but egos and proceeds of a individual .. Its always about taste .. Its always about my taste …. You see Indian music for example does not have the concept of harmony ..there is no orchestra conductor…. There is one performer standing there and every body follows and you can never replicate there performance twice …. Its not about documentation and contracts … its about conversation and FAITH…. Its not about compliance .. Its about setting … getting the job done by bending and breaking the rules …. You tell this to a Indian business man … you will see them smile .. They know what it is … and then talk to people who have done business in India .. U will see exasperation on their faces …. You see this is what India today .. The ground reality of India is based on cyclical world view ..so its rapidly changing …highly diverse …chaotic ambiguous.. Unpredictable .. But people are ok with it …and then globalization is taking place … the demand of modern institutational thinking is coming in ..which is rooted in one life culture … and clash is going to take place
        Example … European and american colleagues asking the process to invoice the hospital in India .. Step A step B step C … mostly … how do you parameterize mostly … how do you put it in a nice little software .. U can’t
        For example there are Indian supermarkets chain like wall mart in India … BIG BAZZAR … they have more than 200 formats in 50 cities and town in India … and he knew he was dealing with diverse and dynamic market … and the owner knew .. The best practices developed in Europe japan and america will not work in India… he knew that institutational thinking does not work in India … individual thinking ..
        As I was trying to explain the concept of drashan in India .. Hindus don’t have the concept of commandments … so there is nothing right or wrong in what you do in life .. So you not really sure how you stand in front of god … so when you go to the temple all you seek is the audience with the god … you want to see god and you want god to see you … there fore god in India have large eyes … large unblinking eyes … so that they look at you … because you don’t know if you are right or wrong so all you seek in divine empathy … just know where I came from … why I did the jugar … why I did the setting .. Why I don’t care for process .. Just understand
        Based on this concept they created the ritual for leaders in the company … after the leader completes the training and is about to take over the store … they blindfold him .. They surround him with the stake holders .. The customer .. His family .. His team ..his boss ..you read out his KRE and KPI and you give him the keys and then you remove the blind fold and invariable you will see tears in his eyes ..because the penny has dropped… he realizes to succeed he does not have to be professional .. He does not have to cut out his emotions he has to include all this people in his world to succeed to make them happy to make his boss happy .. To make every one happy to make customers happy … cause the customer is the GOD …sensitivity is what we need
        Now if you ask me which is the better way the western way or eastern ( Indian ) way .. And their could be more ways too
        I cant answer the question …. All I can give you is the Indian head shake .. And you can picture me doing that … depending on the context… depending on the out come .. Choose your paradigm… you see both the paradigm are human construction … they are cultural creation .. Not natural phenomena … so when next time when you meet some one .. A stranger… one request .. Understand that you live in the subjective truth and so does he … understand it ..and when you understand it .. You will discover some thing spectacular

        “for hindus life is not complete if you don’t gain following in your life time live with virtue- dharma”

        How does caste system fit under “virtue” according to you?…
        let me explain you this way cast system was division of labor .. done by according to you mental and hand skill … like we have lawayers , doctors , business man , politician, janitor etc … since there use to be simple economic activities in those days .. so cast system was also 4 or 5 .. what ever .. the chances of a doctor son to become doctor is more than any one else os is business man and politician .. it was the same thing in those day …and if it continues for 1000 of years .. they just tagged and put in that category… and this gives rise to cast system …
        .

        “gain wealth and success ( we are the only religion who worships goddess of wealth “laxmi””

        Maybe you’re the only one with the wealth goddess (I doubt it though – i can probably run a simple google search for ‘god of wealth’ and find several hundreds listed), but Protestants actually equate wealth and achievement with the sign from god of a free ticket to heaven (of course, it matter not if you robbed a bank to be wealthy…) 🙂 …
        well i guess you are well travelled too .. in how many country you would see wealth goddess picture and small temple for them in offices .. it could be a 100 billion company or 5 $ company you will always see wealth goddess in there office .. and they will perform puja before they start there work every day .. and once a year they will offer prayers to their tools .. but yes google can find lot of wealth goddess in lot of country

        “to find pleasure – ( kamasutra came out of hindusim … and there are other pleasures too)”

        I read the lifestyle part of Kamasutra – you know, the actual BOOK, not picture manual – laughed my ass off 😀 You guys are awesome just for having written that stuff 😀

        On a side note: the stuff is bloody dangerous unless you’re an athlete/yogi…
        see thats standardization again … you dont have to try every thing .. you do what ever is in your capacity … or you dont have to do it at all … the openness

        “to seek enlightenment”

        Middle Way/golden rule by any chance?…
        i dont know what enlightement means to u … for us its knowledge …

        “if we postulate that our capacity to love , this urge to grow and evolve is somehow ” breathed into” us by god then we must ask to what end …”

        And if we postulate that it wasn’t breathed into us by any god but actually simply is a biological adaptation to ensure survival?…
        if u can add in concept of GOD .. biological adaptation is engineering of god .. how does that sound
        ( it sounds like i am defending god … haha) i am just trying to open up thought process

        “why does god want us to grow?”

        You’ve not answered my question from before: are you absolutely certain there IS a god, and if yes – why?
        i am taking GOD as a concept … i dont know if there is god or not .. for me my customer are god … for me the guy who comes and saves my life in accident is a god ..god definition keeps changing

        “what are we growing towards ? where is the end point , the goal of evolution . what is it god that god wants of us ?”

        What if there IS no one goal? What if evolution is just a process of adaptation to a changing environment?… And we’re just a passing species to something else?
        there is no one promised land .. there are many promised land

        “god wants us to become himself”

        God has a gender?… You shoudl read my “Nothing personal” entry for that, as well as for any god’s ‘desires’…
        no god does not have a gender

        “we are growing towards godhood. god is the goal of evolution”

        That’s kind of pointless. We start with ‘god’ – as part of god, AS god, then somehow everything for whatever reason gets so fucked up that we end up as US and have to WORK our way ‘back’ to god… Huh?

        “it is because we are working at it and we are working at it because we love ourselves.”

        No we don’t. People HATE themselves. They hate everything about themselves possibly imaginable and more. Looks, feelings, urges, capacities, limitations, obligations, possibilities, fact of existence itself, and other people/things/events int eh universe.
        no people love there life … of or you wont be angery when ppl insult you .. or when they defend them self if some one tries to kill them .. or even commit suicide .. cause they feel humiliated

        “it is through love that we elevate ourselves and it is through love for others that we assist others to elevate them selves”

        Right. Except ‘love’ isn’t a given state of being.

        “among humanity love is the miraculous force that defies the natural law of entropy
        regarding reincarnation….”

        WOOOOOOW hold your horses right very there… Now, if you managed this sentence in the science think-tank, you’d be beaten up with sticks… To avoid that, please NEVER ever use terminology you have no clue whatsoever about. Unless you’re asking a question.
        well they are experiment taking place in science world … where small infant are hold against there mother and father skin for few hours daily and they grow faster and healthier

        Now… Love is NOT a ‘force’. Love is a chemical cocktail in your body. It’s for procreation purposes. Live with it.

        Entropy defied by love?.. You have any idea what either MEANS/IS?…

        “personally i don’t know if reincarnation exists or not but it effects the way one’s think”

        yeah one side (west) of believers in fairy tales think that a finite number of meaningless but specific ‘right actions’ can earn then an infinite time in heaven/hell, the other side (east) of believers thinks sitting on one’s butt and allowing things to just happen and whatever on everything and everyone because nothing really matters anyway – a very productive way of living on both ends… not…

        “the hindu philosophy gave rise to the concept of non violence… gave rise to person person called “gandhi ””

        Don’t even start me on THAT crazy guy – that’s worth an entry of its own! Yeah he said some catchy stuff and had a few fine ideas but the amount of wicked legacy we got from him may well outweigh all that…
        i dont know what have you read … please enlighten me to find gandhi was crazy ….
        there are world renowned leaders who have followed his philosophy and are famous and successful …. egypt removed a dictator with no violence .. there is revolution taking place in middle east on non violence .. wall streat movement is taking place on non volience … the powerful indian government is shaken by anna hazari .. who is a ghandian .. and he is on the cover of time magazine

        “which is a better philosophy…”

        Unless you’re being shot at from a machine gun, of course…
        ????? well watch gandhi movie … or watch current news … syria army is standing with machine gun so was gaffadi

        “that is DHARMA…. there is nothing wrong or right … every thing is right and wrong depends on the given situation ……… does it make sense to you …..?”

        Yes and no. It’s an escapist relativistic idea that sounds cool at first but really isn’t. Unless, of course, you can come up with some circumstance/situation under which, say, raping a 4 years old kid is EVER a “good” thing and NOT “wrong”…
        its not about sounding cool … these are facts of life … we take decision every movement … according to the situation and circumstances …. now when you talk about raping 4 year old child .. its different topic of karma … which again is long and lengthy process to make one understand …

  5. Vinayak Prasad says:

    and yes i am alive 🙂 thank god for that …….. been busy with solving life problem …. and make some money out of it … so that i can see the world and meet beautiful people like along the way

    • in shade says:

      “i know a family in Nepal…. god man was just a god man preaching his stuff .. but his faith in god man changed him … the god man son … has partied with me and we have done every thing a normal teenager does or a young chap does … girls drugs and every thing .. but he was perceived differently by the family … he was considered avatar of krishna .. and the family had full faith in him … it bettered there life cause of the faith .. for me thats what matters ……if any thing brings good in some one … why not … let it be .. ( now i dont know how god man is defined in west … they are not god but some one who is enlighten) now again i dont know how enlightenment is see in west … but here in east it is the knowledge which defines enlightenment…. i am putting these ideas for greater discussion…”

      1. I see your god man did a lousy job on his own son…
      2. God man is nothing better/worse than a wise man with a valid point. Like a psychologist.
      3. That someone talked someone else out of wife-beating (which really shouldn’t take some GOD person to STOP. Really shouldn’t. It’s just fucking wrong) gives no evidence whatsoever for god, or validity of a religion. In fact, it’s the weak man’s retreat. A weak person, instead of really thinking about his/her actions and their consequences, and instead of actively seeking true meaning and fulfillment in life, needs an imaginary ‘god’ thing to keep them from, say, wife-beating? How lame…

      It takes character, personal responsibility and strength to face up to one’s actions. Frankly, I don’t respect anyone who can say “oh you can’t drink and beat your wife – it’s not good according to ‘god'”. This boogeyman scare tactic is lame, it’s easy and actually does nothing to explain WHY REALLY those behaviors are bad…

      I’d respect someone who, without invoking any magic people in the sky, could show that man that his wife was a person of EQUAL MERIT to his own and not a subordinate; that his drinking problem stemmed from a weakness of him being unable to face REALITY; that he has only as much worth in his life as much good he can manage to do and that wasting one single precious life away is just a crying shame. Now THAT takes actual WORK, and SKILL to do. And it’s honest.

      “i will again repeat … GOD is a concept …. and every individual have the right to the concept …i will try to put some thing from how belief can change the way one does business ….”

      You are missing my point – ENTIRELY. I said there is NOTHING WRONG WITH A CONCEPT. Duh.

      please read/watch this:
      http://inshade.wordpress.com/2011/11/27/i-am-fucking-angry-yes-i-am-enraged-here-is-why/

      “If you believe in just living once … in one life culture around the world you will see the obsession with Binary logic” – no.
      “Absolute Truth” – that’s ridiculous, there’s no such thing as “absolute truth”…
      “Standardization” – of what exactly and why is it bad?…
      “Absoluteness” – huh?
      “Linear pattern design” – bullshit

      “And if you look at culture which believes in cyclical and infinite life you will see comfort with Fuzzy logic” – as in, non whatsoever? “Fuzzy logic” isn’t logic. Don’t call it that name. It’s a different, circumstantial and emotional take on events and assessment. Unfortunately, one can look at circumstances and emotions that’d say “Raj is a good man, never misbehaves, he was upset this one time, he will never do this again” but that, unfortunately, doesn’t address a problem of Raj raping an underage girl – which is fucking wrong regardless of what kind of “fuzzy logic” you can invent.
      “With opinion” – my (and everyone else’s) opinion on Raj can be that he’s a great person. Again, doesn’t change the facts – rape.
      “With contextual thinking” – yeah we do that too here, can you imagine?…
      “With every thing is relative sort of …mostly( you look at art look at ballerina .. How linear she is in her performance and look at the Indian classic dancer .. Bharat natyam dancer … curveishesh”

      If you’re parroting the TED talk to me on that subject – I’ve watched the TED talk. I am well aware of cultural differences. Unfortunately, child rape is rape – and if some culture can somehow “fuzzy logic” itself to such point of “curvatiousness” that it DENIES that child rape is bad by not punishing the offender – that culture is worth shit.

      “So you not really sure how you stand in front of god … ”

      Why the fuck should it matter? Why isn’t “how I stand in front of FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS and the ENVIRONMENT” the question instead?…

      “let me explain you this way cast system was division of labor .. ”

      I don’t give a flying crap about what it USED to be and WHY it came into being – I KNOW all that. I wonder how not allowing a person to do something simply because that person was born into a certain caste fits into “virtue”

      “On a side note: the stuff is bloody dangerous unless you’re an athlete/yogi…
      see thats standardization again … you dont have to try every thing .. you do what ever is in your capacity … or you dont have to do it at all … the openness”

      It is NOT “standardization”. It’s a simple statement of the fact that a book with no clear warning of how badly you can hurt yourself if you try some of it is a dangerous thing. People are crap at assessing their own abilities, too, when they are crap at something. In fact, accuracy of self-assessment only increases with actual skill. Unskilled/unable people consistently over-estimate their abilities.

      “i dont know what enlightement means to u … for us its knowledge …”

      I was talking about the PATH to knowledge. HOW it is to be acquired.

      “if u can add in concept of GOD .. biological adaptation is engineering of god .. how does that sound ( it sounds like i am defending god … haha) i am just trying to open up thought process”

      It sounds just as sane as saying “the beauty of this garden is a work of FAIRIES and UNICORNS.”

      “i am taking GOD as a concept … i dont know if there is god or not .. for me my customer are god … for me the guy who comes and saves my life in accident is a god ..god definition keeps changing”

      So whoever you’re meant to serve and whoever does you good is ‘god’…?

      “What if there IS no one goal? What if evolution is just a process of adaptation to a changing environment?… And we’re just a passing species to something else?
      there is no one promised land .. there are many promised land”

      PROMISED BY WHOM? And to whom? Why does there have to be ANY GOAL to life?

      “no god does not have a gender”

      HOW do you know that much about god?…

      That’s kind of pointless. We start with ‘god’ – as part of god, AS god, then somehow everything for whatever reason gets so fucked up that we end up as US and have to WORK our way ‘back’ to god… Huh?

      “no people love there life … of or you wont be angery when ppl insult you .. or when they defend them self if some one tries to kill them .. or even commit suicide .. cause they feel humiliated”

      Millions of people don’t love their life. Simple self-preservation instinct kicks in at many point, but many people HATE their lives.

      People commit suicide for a load of reasons – sometimes simply HATING THEIR LIFE is one, yaknow. Sometimes it’s seeing no point in it. Sometimes 1000 other things.

      Getting upset at insults has nothing to do with life loving. It has to do with our fragile ego.

      “well they are experiment taking place in science world … where small infant are hold against there mother and father skin for few hours daily and they grow faster and healthier”

      Actually dear your data is out-dated. There are studies that clearly show that ANY HUMAN TOUCH on a regular basis is good for the baby. In cases of prematurely born babies, those that were massaged and touched regularly by nurses grew up faster and healthier. It has NOTHING to do with magic. It has to do with neural activity, comfort of touch and other factors.

      “i dont know what have you read … please enlighten me to find gandhi was crazy ….”

      He halted India’s independence-gaining by decades, India’s industrial development, he marginalized the Muslim minority (hence Kashmere and constant nuclear threat), he lied about his hunger strikes (they weren’t hunger strikes they were a farce – he could live off his smoothies for years – his own words btw), he also wanted a warm spot in the new Indian government, enjoyed luxury (while preaching a ‘simple life’) and like himself some young women…(to name a few… That’s just an executive digest).

      “there are world renowned leaders who have followed his philosophy and are famous and successful …. ”

      So? He might have said some wise words and given some nice ideas (non-violence btw only works under some conditions and isn’t THE panacea for all situations). I can quote you Hitler and you’d think it was Gandhi – so amazing some of his quotes are. Was Hitler a great man, even though he had some cool/wise things to say? Doubt it.

      “????? well watch gandhi movie … or watch current news … syria army is standing with machine gun so was gaffadi”

      Yeah and then you die and you’re dead.

      Nowadays there’s international pressure to at least PRETEND that human rights matter. This had nothing to do with Gandhi – that had to do with rule of LAW taking grip over time. If those protesters went to the streets a few decades ago – they’d be quickly massacred and no one’d bat an eyelid.

      “its not about sounding cool … these are facts of life … we take decision every
      movement … according to the situation and circumstances …. now when you talk about raping 4 year old child .. its different topic of karma … which again is long and lengthy process to make one understand …”

      Fuck do I care about karma. Give me ONE set of circumstances under which raping a 4 years old child is OKAY.

  6. Anonymous says:

    its just u ranting and raving, nothing more..whats the question? are believers perfect? thats an easy answer, and not worth a reply.
    as far as science goes, i agree science has some fascinating finds, in saying that, they also have some epic fails. whats ur point? i have to believe it all or none?

    • in shade says:

      1. Science self-corrects. Religion – hardly so.
      2. You claim to have SOME understanding of something divine. I wonder what gives you such supernatural powers as it would require to pull that off.
      3. I already answered this before, please if you wish to comment the 3d time, make sure you don’t repeat yourself like a broken record, or I would have to delete you for trolling.

  7. Daniel says:

    First, my belief does not constitute truth. Objective truths exist. However, we apprehend these truths as best we can. Attributing a degree of certainty to your understanding of a particular truth you apprehend is what makes a belief. Beliefs can be true or less than true depending on our degree of apprehension.

    Observed truth or truth we discover, is ultimately inadequate to affect absolute certainty within man. Having no deeper foundation other than our own fallible faculties, our beliefs must deliver a standing invitation to all competing ideas until all possibilities are exhausted. If, then, our beliefs stand, they can only hold certainty in the sense of having withstood all other ideas our current day and age can muster and for which we are able to understand. Thus, our beliefs can only hold a current temporary certainty while holding a respect for such a time in the future that mankind is able to obtain a greater understanding of those beliefs. Thus, absolute certainty can never be reached by mankind just using evidence.

    No evidence for factual things reaches 100%. For instance, when you want to cross the street you carefully look both ways to see what your chances are. And, assuming that a car driving at excessive speeds is not coming along, your chances of getting across the street are about 80% (give or take) of doing so with your arms and legs intact. But, it’s never 100%. What you really do is combine the evidence at the level that it exists with faith. Faith is jumping the gap from the evidence to certainty. And, most people when they cross the street take 100% of themselves along, not 80%. They do not leave an arm or a leg behind. Our decisions in life are a combination of evidence and faith. This is completely unlike the idea that faith is something in the absence of evidence.

    Truth (God), as a Being with person-hood, is entirely in the position to produce a greater degree of certainty within man than he could reach alone. For Truth, having personality, could relate with man, instruct, and cleanse man of error he could not have eliminated on his own. But, man still must have faith in order to act upon what he has received.

    That is not to say that man would then have an infallible understanding of the truth. The best he could do is present to others a representation of this Truth-Being or a representation of some external truth the Being has communicated. The representation would still be subject to the fallible faculties of man and therefore must deliver the same standing invitation to other representations.

    If, in shade, you really think that you can only know things scientifically, then you reduce a subject (God) to an object, and say that because we can’t know him as an object, then we can’t know him at all. Science has full jurisdiction over objects but not subjects.

    If you want to begin communication with the subject (God), it means changing the role you play in relation to knowing. You would become the receiver, and not the discoverer or tester. This is simply the nature of interacting with a subject. If you “ask”, you must be in a position to “receive.” You would have to submit yourself to the subject in order to receive the answer, and leave science behind because it would become useless in such a personal exchange of communication.

    • in shade says:

      “First, my belief does not constitute truth.”

      So you never ever use “the one and only TRUE god” when you talk about your first choice for the deity?.. If so, why do you believe in that god over any other out there?

      “Objective truths exist. However, we apprehend these truths as best we can. Attributing a degree of certainty to your understanding of a particular truth you apprehend is what makes a belief. Beliefs can be true or less than true depending on our degree of apprehension.”

      Ehm no. Beliefs are true if reality reflects what is being believed in.

      The degree of apprehension of ancient cosmology lead millions of people over the course of generations to consider that it is TRUE that the Earth is flat and it revolves around the Sun. However, no amount of belief and certainty ever MADE the Earth flat at any point of its history.

      “Observed truth or truth we discover, is ultimately inadequate to affect absolute certainty within man.”

      Sure. However, ‘absolute subjective certainty’ = OPINION. I can hold an absolutely certain OPINION that my garden is inhabited by fairies. Would it make my garden be inhabited by fairies?

      “Thus, our beliefs can only hold a current temporary certainty while holding a respect for such a time in the future that mankind is able to obtain a greater understanding of those beliefs. Thus, absolute certainty can never be reached by mankind just using evidence.”

      Well let’s see… I already invited someone to jump off a cliff before – why don’t you go ahead join in? I mean… You can never be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that, under all the same conditions, gravity ALWAYS works the same way, right? What if THAT one time that YOU decide to jump, you’d instead be lifted up by some queer occurrence in the physical world? I mean, how can you EVER be absolutely certain of how gravity works on Earth? That’s just unattainable!

      “No evidence for factual things reaches 100%.”

      Yes, we can all be just a dream of a butterfly, a hologram on the event horizon of a massive black hole, or a program in the matrix – we’d never know… But guess what? That is actually irrelevant. Because within our observable universe and on our little planet, some things are DEAD 100% certain. Like the fact that gravity acts upon all matter…

      In addition, the 100% certainty is a false postulate for science – once you reach 100% certainty for anything (even if that something DOES occur in 100% of all cases, it would still be labelled as 99,9999999999999999999999% certainty or something) – that’s the end of any inquiry. That’s not how science works. It adopts the ‘nothing is certain’ postulate – even for things that ARE dead certain – by default. This encourages to never stop to question.

      “For instance, when you want to cross the street you carefully look both ways to see what your chances are. And, assuming that a car driving at excessive speeds is not coming along, your chances of getting across the street are about 80% (give or take) of doing so with your arms and legs intact. But, it’s never 100%. What you really do is combine the evidence at the level that it exists with faith. Faith is jumping the gap from the evidence to certainty. And, most people when they cross the street take 100% of themselves along, not 80%. They do not leave an arm or a leg behind. .”

      By your layman estimate of ‘chance’ to safely cross the street I should’ve been dead by the age of 1.

      I wonder why you had to even invoke street-crossing when you could simply begin with “waking up alive the next morning”… (Except, you see, death is actually certain – it’s 100% for ALL species – yes, even that ‘eternal’ jellyfish. Because one day our planet will be eaten up by the Sun and everything will most definitely be dead…).

      You’re also comparing apples and oranges and I specifically requested to not use doublespeak in the answers… While one’s chances for any given REAL event to happen/not happen actually CAN be pretty accurately estimated (because REAL things and events are – wait for it – MEASURABLE and OBSERVABLE and, yaknow, REAL 😉 ), the chances of ‘something that is beyond any real assessment’ canNOT be estimated. Because, well, that’s the very definition of it. Please do NOT compare ever again REAL and OBSERVABLE phenomena with something that by definition is NOT any of that.

      “Our decisions in life are a combination of evidence and faith. This is completely unlike the idea that faith is something in the absence of evidence”

      Our decisions in life are a combination of evidence and weighing the CERTAINTY of potential possible outcomes to the best of our abilities under conditions of imperfect insight.

      Faith (dictionary): a belief in something that is NOT substantiated by ANY EVIDENCE.

      When I cross the street, I don’t have blind faith that the cars will stop at my green light. Neither, in fact, do I have the blind faith that none of them won’t start after stopping and run me over anyway. Either is possible. However, based on observation of REALITY, I am safe to ASSUME that there is a substantial enough chance that the cars would stop to let me pass at my green and none of them would all of a sudden run me over mid-way. It’s a reasonable ASSUMPTION, a conclusion that is drawn from past experience and probability assessment. I wish I had at hand the TED talk on the brain being basically a probability calculating machine. Except for that to be happening, data needs to be punched in. There canNOT be any data, by definition, for something that exists somehow outside of the laws of this universe (by the way that alone kills ‘god’ because it violates god’s omnipresence… See “Nothing personal” entry for that)

      “Truth (God), as a Being with person-hood, is entirely in the position to produce a greater degree of certainty within man than he could reach alone.”

      Exactly where did we make the quantum leap from all your previous examples to “therefore: god exists”?… You’ve just made claims about something that you never showed to be true…

      Truth (dictionary): when applied to the question of EXISTENCE of anything, is something that is accurate, valid and existent irrespective of anyone’s BELIEF in it or OPINION of it. When used in other contexts, it can be fully subjective and extremely inconclusive. We can spend an hour arguing over “this girl is Marion!” “no, this girl is Mandy!!!” and we’d BOTH be saying the truth – for her name is Marion Mandy. If you’re willing to concede that ‘god’ is nothing but a subjective claim – fine. That’s actually exactly what it is. Except act accordingly and keep it to yourself in that case.

      “For Truth, having personality”

      How would you assess the personality of, lemme think… The force of gravity acting on your body whilst you’re in a free-fall down the cliff? 😀

      “could relate with man”

      Yeah I know, right? Just the other day I was having coffee with a black hole that’s in the center of our galaxy, and I mean we TOTALLY hit it off, like kin souls!!!

      “instruct”

      “Thy shall EAT your spouse WHILE he’s shagging you” – said the praying mantes…

      “and cleanse man of error he could not have eliminated on his own.”

      Such as?…

      “But, man still must have faith in order to act upon what he has received.”

      No. Man has to have compelling evidence that would signal the respective chances of the likely outcomes and evaluate potential consequences of that choice (based, again, not on faith – because I can believe all I want that I WILL win the lottery tomorrow if when I get up I’d spin the circles 26 times, bark like a dog and lick my toe, but I’m afraid no amount of faith can beat the blind chance to assigning victory. Oh and even IF I won the lottery that day – this definitely would have NOTHING to do with my toe-licking because remember – correlation does not equal causation…) again based on assessing probabilities of different outcomes in the light of past data, and also personal preference for specific outcome plays role in what will be considered as ultimately desirable, second best, etc.

      “That is not to say that man would then have an infallible understanding of the truth.”

      Right. You could actually finish right there.

      “The best he could do is present to others a representation of this Truth-Being or a representation of some external truth the Being has communicated.”

      No actually. The BEST man could do is DEMONSTRATE that the BEING IS THERE to begin with. Because frankly I can go ahead and tell you that my own tiny pink flying elephants TOLD ME some truth and you’d HAVE TO believe me because guess what? They’re invisible and immeasurable BUT, they ARE real – I am TELLING YOU about them!!! Except I am yet to find a single asshole willing to listen to MY ‘inaudible voices’ in MY head and consider them ‘true’… I dunno, maybe elephants should consider changing color to make them more believable?..

      “The representation would still be subject to the fallible faculties of man and therefore must deliver the same standing invitation to other representations.”

      Right. I’m yet to hear a single true believer in the faith of theirs say “I MAY have chosen the WRONG religion to follow and the WRONG god to listen to…”
      Call me when you find one…

      “If, in shade, you really think that you can only know things scientifically, then you reduce a subject (God) to an object, and say that because we can’t know him as an object, then we can’t know him at all. Science has full jurisdiction over objects but not subjects.”

      Science has full jurisdiction over, lemme see… actual REALITY.

      It actually also have a pretty good grip on subjects (you mean living things?..People?), too. It also has a very good grip on SUBJECTIVE PERCEPTION and feelings, funnily enough – from pattern-recognition, to genetically determined differences in the brain that make one person more susceptible to believing in fairies than another, to how and why we experience certain emotions you you name it… We also are beginning to ‘see’ other people’s dreams (by monitoring their brain activity) and thoughts and projecting images of that onto a screen in real time… We know why and how we are self-aware, and that our sense of ego is a by-product of the sense that allows us to determine where our body ends and the rest of the world begins and where we currently are in space in relation to other things, as well as where our body parts are in relation to one another… I mean, science is quite fascinating 🙂

      Now back to ‘god’ thing: claiming ‘god’ is untestable means god is NOT in any manner involved/present in the universe. That, of course, poofs god out on omnipresence premise…

      Now IF god were to constitute a true real presence and force in our universe, there are a zillion ways to test its existence. In the past few thousands of years many have tried. Nothing came up.

      “If you want to begin communication with the subject (God), it means changing the role you play in relation to knowing.”

      Wow that’s cool! Would that work with the aliens, too? I mean wtf – we’re spending so much cash on trying to see if we run into any aliens, and all we really NEED to do instead is to PRETEND as IF they’re there and go ahead have a chat??? That’s GENIUS!

      “You would become the receiver, and not the discoverer or tester.”

      Thanx but ehm, no thanx. I have neither time nor money to accept every hoax and scam I run into on blind faith, receive it and get ripped off…

      “This is simply the nature of interacting with a subject.”

      I kinda always thought that interacting with a subject rests on premise 1: There IS a subject… (and in all other cases, it’s called “interaction with an object” (such as wall…) and/or, if you want to distinguish, “interaction with yourself” (which interaction with the wall actually is))

      “If you “ask”, you must be in a position to “receive.” You would have to submit yourself to the subject in order to receive the answer,”

      I’m calling NASA with this – this is groundbreaking cheap way to talk to the aliens!!! How stupid are they to never have thought about it?!

      “and leave science behind because it would become useless in such a personal exchange of communication.”

      GET OFF YOUR COMPUTER NOW. 😛

      On a side-note, talking to yourself is fully scientific and explainable…

      Nice try though, but jumping logic loops just doesn’t cut it…

  8. Pingback: The immoral, unhappy, angry, traumatized, lost, purposeless, dimwit atheist | Contemplating

  9. Simon Joseph Lau says:

    None of us have a perfect understanding of anything divine, but we are in a state of discovery, so we bring our claims to the table that we may share perspectives. Love and humanism are a common teaching in almost all religions though, and you atheists also subscribe to them; therefore if there is anything we can know about the divine, this must be it. You don’t need a faith to grasp it or know about it, but you certainly need to know it when approaching any divine teachings.

    • in shade says:

      Ah, Simon, you almost nailed it! But just almost…

      “None of us have a perfect understanding of anything divine,”

      Right. I sure hope more people would keep THIS much in mind.

      “but we are in a state of discovery, so we bring our claims to the table that we may share perspectives.”

      Indeed.

      “Love and humanism are a common teaching in almost all religions though,”

      Ehm – no. In most religions, any “love” is reserved for the tribe of one’s own, and any humanism is reserved only for the males of the society – children, women and slaves are treated as animals: beaten, traded, told to shut up, and their worth is counted only superficially. Weirdly enough, even people’s favorite Buddhism is extremely male-centered and male-dominated.

      Not a single religion of old days adheres to values of true humanism. NOT ONE. Because they all by default consider the MAN to be the more important thing than, say, a woman. That by default renders them inhumane – our specific species of ape has long outgrown the social structure of unquestioned male dominance being seen as something proper and desirable.

      I could, of course, also list here all the “loving” and “humane” things commanded by so many religions (including your own) and performed by the “loving deity”, too. But you should know the list by heart already. It goes from human and animal sacrifice to genocide, from slavery to physical abuse, from discrimination and hate to denial of any rights, from stoning and witch burning to punishment for thought crimes and considering a menstruating woman ‘unclean’, from insisting the earth is flat to the insanely megalomanic claim that the whole bloody thing was actually created FOR them, and so forth. NONE of the above is humane, NONE of it is loving. At least SOME of it is present in any old mythology people still render sacred to this day…

      “and you atheists also subscribe to them;”

      We do. Unlike most religious people. Their “love” and “humanity” only lasts them till they encounter something they’re afraid of – like (gasp!) a homosexual person (oh maaaa gaaaaawwwd!!!!!), a person of a completely different faith, or a non-believer… A sex industry worker, or simply a person who is promiscuous… Someone who DARES to be painfully happy without THEIR favorite mythology banged into their heads… The moment they meet any of those (or a woman… Or anyone else they don’t like – or their book tells them not to like…). Simply by even thinking that there IS something like hell or after-death punishment – THAT already is hate-filled to the top, sadistic and absolutely inhumane. Just thinking that this MAY be right is vile and rotten to the core. Or insisting that it is a part of some sadistic “divine plan” to make people and other creatures suffer on this planet – even for a moment – then demand that sick fucktard of a ‘god’ be called “omnibenevolent” – THAT is inhumane and as far from ‘loving’ as it goes, too. Anyone who claims to be thus religious but doesn’t believe any of those horrors STILL subscribes to the fact that their god, being the creator of EVERYTHING (including evil – he says so himself that he’s the one who created evil), is a sick sadist and by worshiping something like that they worship a sick sadist and I’m sorry but even a monkey in the jungle wouldn’t submit willingly to a sick sadist – it’d fight and gather others to help it kill the fucker or shun it away. By believing in ANY god you are INHUMANE by definition.

      “therefore if there is anything we can know about the divine, this must be it.”

      Non sequitor. Existence of love and compassion does not automatically equal to the existence of the divine – or its manifestation. I’m not even mentioning that even if there was a ‘divine’ (and if there is, it BETTER have some answers for its crimes, hate and sadism), none of the earthly stuff points that that divine is most accurately described by a specific set of ancient mythology – or even remotely described by any of them.

      “You don’t need a faith to grasp it or know about it, but you certainly need to know it when approaching any divine teachings.”

      Calling them divine teachings is a circular argument. They only have the ‘divine’ status because inside them they say ‘we are the divine teachings’. Well, in that case the Da Vinci Code is ALL TRUE (it also claims to be based on thorough research) and we can unearth the body of Mary and find J-Zeus’s bloodline descendants… Why? IT SAYS SO IN THE BOOK!!!

      So you started of fine, but jumped to a non-sequitor right away, right over the gaps that you needed to fill in order to arrive to such conclusion reasonably. Nice try though.

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